Journalist: Today we have with us Raffaella Di Marzio, director of the LIREC study center, a religious psychologist and expert on religious issues, especially in connection with reports to the authorities. We are aware of the recent tragic events in Hamburg where a shooting took place in a Kingdom Hall, which resulted in people dying and being wounded by a man who turned out to be a former member of the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. So, Dr. Di Marzio, I'll come straight to the point. In light of your studies and of your, let's say, even public complaints over time of the dealings with and considerations that one must have toward religious minorities, can we say that this is the unpredictable phenomenon of an individual or that there is a dangerous attitude of hate?
Dr. Di Marzio: This hate crime is particularly significant, in a negative sense, because it was perpetrated and carried out inside a place of worship, freely chosen by the murderer among those he himself had attended up to a year and a half before. So, although it seems that this man was manifesting hatred in general for religion in his writings, he did not go and shoot in a Catholic church or a Buddhist temple, he went and shot inside a Kingdom hall. So, he manifested hatred of those people because they are people who belong to his previous religion, a fact that cannot be questioned. Now we might say that it is the act of a madman. It is also possible that this person had psychological problems and yet in this case, in addition to these problems, there is also religious hatred manifested through a massacre, a hate crime that will certainly be reported to the OSCE, which has specifically requested all member states to send reports. This of course will be one of those that will be sent. What I mean is that this could be the end of a very long story where hate speech becomes incitement to hate and then hate crimes.
Journalist: From words to deeds basically, Doctor…
Dr. Di Marzio: Basically, hate crimes are not born this way, they are prepared over time. And particularly against this minority, as specifically mentioned earlier, the media as well as former members of this religious organization spread a lot of news, much of it even false, which instigates in the public in general hatred towards this religious minority. We believe, as a study center, that these things can and should be prevented through a condemnation first of all of hate speech and anyone who, through speech, begins to incite others. And I read these things all the time, but also in well-known newspapers. We have even seen some newspapers that have done a series of articles on Jehovah's Witnesses that just spread hate speech and portray them in a light that is not absolutely true. Yes, it is true, they are people of faith, they want to spread their beliefs, but this is all legal, it is all legitimate.
Journalist: Proselytism is part of all religious faiths, right?
Dr. Di Marzio: No, it's actually a right, so much so that in order to prevent this right to spread one’s faith, those states that have done it, like Russia, had to first come up with laws, which are laws that go against all laws and human rights. So, Jehovah's Witnesses don't do anything illegal when they knock on doors, just as we don't do anything illegal, to tell them “Look, I am not interested”. We can, we have the freedom to, criticize Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, Catholics, Muslims. We can also express these criticisms of ours by staying within this framework without it turning into hatred and especially without spreading fake news.
Journalist: They are often referred to as a cult, and this inevitably arouses blame and suspicion from
people. Are they or are they not? More importantly, those who leave the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, as may have happened to this man in Hamburg, later on we’ll talk about what happened in Italy, are they free to do so?
Dr. Di Marzio: Absolutely, first of all our study center has abolished this word. We don't call anybody a cult anymore because it's a stigma, it has become a stigma used by the media and by those who hate minorities to make people think that they are criminal and dangerous groups. So we, as well as in reality the internationally renowned scholars, the Council of Europe, the OSCE, the European Union, all of these big international organizations, do not use this term. They all invite us to use a different expression, so it is not just us. Let's say it's a whole world that has realized that the use of this word is detrimental and incites to hatred. And clearly this also applies to the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Those who want to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses disassociate themselves, that's the word they use, freely for personal reasons. And Jehovah's Witnesses have no interest in keeping these people forcibly inside, because they would only be a problem for others. So, there is maximum freedom, let's say that to a certain extent this is also in the interests of the congregation: if a person doesn't want to follow the rules anymore, if they don't want to attend the meetings, well then, it's better that they are not inside the congregation. So, this depends on personal freedom, there is no compulsion to remain.
Those, on the other hand, who are disfellowshipped because, according to the rules of the congregation they have committed very serious crimes. That would need to be looked into, but in this situation there is no time. In these cases, the congregation requires that, based on its interpretation of certain Bible verses, this person no longer has contact with other members of the congregation. Or if they live in a family of Jehovah's Witnesses, family relationships are not changed. Sometimes they try to avoid discussions in the religious sphere to avoid internal conflicts. By the way, I personally know Jehovah's Witnesses who have left the congregation and again, they still have relationships with their family. And if some family did not agree, for example, a child leaves and the family does not agree to have any more contact with him, well in that case nothing would happen to that family. Whoever becomes a Jehovah's Witness knows this rule from the beginning. In order to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses it takes a long time, as people have to study the Bible according to the interpretation given to them, and this rule is well explained from the beginning.
Journalist: Now, with regards to the events in Hamburg, I know through the field work that LIREC study center does, that our country also had incidents, one in particular, which I would like you to talk about, of let's say a dangerous intimidating attitude towards these people. So, I would ask you, what do you think should be done to prevent these hate crimes from happening? So, that words do not turn into actions. Is there or is there not some sort of prevention in our country?
Dr. Di Marzio: In Italy, there was an incident that in my opinion is very serious. It happened on January 7, [2023,] in Viverone, in the province of Biella. One Saturday morning, two Jehovah's Witnesses were knocking on the doors of several houses in a small village. An elderly man answered and he was obviously annoyed. It was Saturday morning, maybe he was annoyed and after he responded badly to these two Jehovah's Witnesses, he went to the window, took his rifle and fired a shot in the air shouting to these two people that next time he would shoot on the ground. When he fired, obviously all of the neighbors came out. The police arrived too and this person was arrested and his gun license was taken away, he is a hunter. Legal action was also taken against him. Now the thing that struck me most about this whole thing was the letter that a friend of this gentleman wrote to a newspaper defending his friend and expressing the opinion that, let's say, makes the reader think that basically the Jehovah's Witnesses had it coming because they had disturbed his friend… without in the least saying that maybe his friend had exaggerated. Exaggerated indeed he had, to the point that the police arrested him and took away his gun license. It is important to make these (religious) communities known for what they are. We also try to flag up issues with newspaper editorial offices, and try to signal whenever we notice any false information, even dangerous information with regards to these minorities. What we can try to do is this, try to stay in contact with the authorities and report to the authorities, as with the OSCE, all those cases of discrimination that we think should be reported.
